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“Historicism’s Antichrist” Feedback

In regard to my post on Historicism Ian Myerscough commented:

Hi Tim,

I’m writing cos I normally just smile at your contributions on Fivedoves - but your teenage style dismissal of Historicism is more breathtaking than usual. The foremost writer of the last 2 centuries on historicism was Dr Grattan Guiness, the Maths and Astronomy chair of Dublin University, and the outstanding Bible teacher and preacher of evangelical Christianity of his day in Ireland. He also started one of today’s largest Missionary societies out of his own tireless evangelistic efforts. He wrote literally dozens of now standard scholarly texts on Church History etc. Try reading some of his works like ‘Light for the Last days’ before you rush into cyberspace again with a few trivial paragraphs. NB You’ll need a few weeks for each book - he’s not a 21st century soundbite peddlar!

Hi Ian, thanks for introducing yourself as another smiling reader of mine =). Seriously, I agree there is much more I could have written in my last post to debunk Historicism, but time did not permit it. But really, it ought to be enough to point out it breaks the plain reading of scripture. If we could all read the Bible properly and learn to not entertain theories that break the consensus of the face value meaning of plain scripture, there would be no one subscribing to Historicism, or many, many other things taught by the myriad contradictory flavors of Christianity.

As for your appeal to the authority of Dr. Guinness, this is a falacious argument given the high amount of expert contradiction in the area of eschatology. To whit:

If there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute among the experts within a subject, then it will be fallacious to make an Appeal to Authority using the disputing experts. This is because for almost any claim being made and “supported” by one expert there will be a counterclaim that is made and “supported” by another expert. In such cases an Appeal to Authority would tend to be futile. In such cases, the dispute has to be settled by consideration of the actual issues under dispute. Since either side in such a dispute can invoke experts, the dispute cannot be rationally settled by Appeals to Authority.”

The chief consideration of the actual issues in this case I would submit is whether a theory breaks plain scripture, something that Jesus emphasized in his theological debate with the pharisees (John 10:35).

I will also point out that Bible prophecy was sealed until the End Times so that people like Dr Guinness or Sir Isaac Newton, as great as they may have been, just like the great Daniel, were at a supreme disadvantage in understanding End Times Bible Prophecy because they were not of the proper generation when these things would be unsealed and “righteous” “wise men” would understand them (Daniel 12:9-10).

Finally, I cover the Biblical definition of the wisdom needed to understand prophecy in my book Planet X in Bible Prophecy, but I will state that it’s clear that neither Guinness or Newton fulfill that requirement, as well. If this assessment is true, then it would be scripturally impossible for them to properly understand Bible Prophecy, disqualifying them as experts all the more.

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06-06-06, June 6th, 2006 = 666

Tammy, a reader of my book Planet X in Bible Prophecy, asked:

Greetings,

I am a Elem school teacher in OK. I teach 6th grade Science. I had a student ask me today what I thought was going to happen on this date 06-06-06? He asked me if it was the devils #, I said “Yes”. I told him I couldn’t answer his question, but I knew who we could ask. We are asking you. Do you have any info about the coming storm around this date?

First, 666 is actually not the devil’s number, but the number of the Beast of Revelation 13 who receives his power, throne and authority from Satan (Rev 13:2). This Satanic help enables him to rule the coming one world government / NWO for 3½ years / 42 months / 1260 days. But more specifically, it says that 666 is only associated with the this man once you calculate it from his name.

Count the Number of the Beast?

For Western Gentile English speakers, this is a foreign concept. However, to the Hebrew John who wrote the Book of Revelation, this instruction would have been readily understandable. Not having Roman numerals for numbers, Ancient Hebrew has a different value assigned to each letter for representing numbers. Thus, by adding up the individual letter values of any Hebrew word, you could “count its number” or find its numeric representation. See here for details: Antichrist Identified

So, since this is explicitly given as the number of the name of a man, not the number of a date on any calendar, we should not be afraid of the date 06-06-06 or otherwise watch and expect anything on it except maybe extra Halloween Eve-type mischief from people trying to fulfill a misapplied prophecy. In all probability that day will come and go without event. If you haven’t noticed, it always seems that the unpublicized dates are the days that big things happen on (like 9-11, for example), whereas every time someone puts a specific date to watch and it spreads across the Internet so everyone is watching it, nothing happens. In fact, it seems to almost guarantee nothing will happen on that day if everyone is watching it, like a kettle on the stove =).

The True Biblical Prophetic Watch Day Is…

In conclusion, we should not pay attention to 666 appearing in any context other than the result of the calculation of some prince’s name (Dan 9:26). Moreover, that person had better also already literally fit the other face value criteria given in Revelation 13 to identify the Antichrist since focusing on 666 and ignoring the rest of the prophecy of the Beast is sure to lead you to misapply the prophecy as well.

06-06-06 is a counterfeit of the true prophetic day we should be watching. There are seven prophetic feast days given in Leviticus 23. Jesus fulfilled two completely of them in his ministry and through a partial fulfillment showed us how the next one would be fulfilled. In 2006, this day occurred only 2 days before 06-06-06, on 06-04-06. It was the Day of Pentecost. Click here to find out what disaster is predicted to happen on a soon future Feast of Pentecost

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Daniel 9:27 Explained: Who Makes Which Covenant?

Jim B asked:

I feel Daniel 9:27 is one of the most troublesome passages in the Scriptures, not in and of itself, but because of the numerous different orderings of words that appear in the various translations. Further, the pronoun, “he” that appears twice in the verse lends even more confusion because most translations do not make clear whether the entire verse is in reference to Christ, the antichrist, or both.

First, notice three different readings in my possession of the third (last) clause:

1. And for the overspreading of abominations…
2. And on the wings of abominations….
3. And on the wing of the temple….

#3 is particularly troublesome because it suggests that a statue of the antichrist will be placed on a “wing” or section of the temple. Is that what the verse is implying? But that is in no way implied in versions 1 & 2.

#2 is confusion because “wing” begins to sound metaphoric, eg. “On Wings of Song”

#1 makes absolutely no sense to me. “For” sounds like “because of” eg. “And because of the overspreading (maybe the translator means far-reaching) abominations…

But the confusion does not end there. The New King James makes a distinction in the first sentence of v.27 by giving the “he” a small h, implying that Daniel are referring to a human, probably antichrist. But then in the second clause NKJ states, “But in the middle of the week, ‘He’ shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering”. Now the capital H in “He” supports the theory that Christ (and not antichrist) fulfilled the first half of Daniel’s 70th week by ending the need for animal sacrifice with crucifixion. This, of course, would shoot full of holes the theory that antichrist will confirm a peace treaty with the Jews and then break it in the middle of the 70th week. But then we come against another perplexing question: why would Daniel  refer to the antichrist in the first clause of v.27, then jump to Jesus in the second clause, then jump back to antichrist in the third and last clause. hence:

• “Then he (antichrist) shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week;”
• “But in the middle of the week He (Christ) shall bring an end to sacrifice and oblations;”
• “And on the wing of abominations shall be “one” (antichrist?) who makes desolate…”

Has anyone who knows Hebrew actually gone back to examine the “he” of v.27 to see if there is some sort of distinction readily apparent in the text, similar to how we capitalize He in reference to Deity, and a small h in he for ordinary humans? This would go a long way to properly interpreting v.27 but, absent that, I’m afraid the controversy over a 3 1/2-year or 7-year tribulation will continue until Jesus returns.

Jim raises some great questions about confusion over the correct reading of what is considered possibly the most important prophetic verse in the entire Bible.

1. Who do the three he’s refer to here? Does one of them (capitalized in NKJV) refer to Christ?
2. Which reading of the variations is correct: abominations or temple?
3. And how long is that tribulation anyway?
4. What is the covenant made about?

Does He refer to Messiah or Anti-messiah?

This question troubled me for some time after hearing Michael Rood propose that the Messiah is referred to here, not Antichrist, a perspective I had never heard before. After looking at it both ways I’m more confident on this verse than I ever would have been before.

The old idea that the one who confirms the covenant is Christ (with his New Covenant) does not fit the context. The last eligible antecedent to the three he’s in v.27 is “the prince of the people who shall come and destroy the temple” of v.26 referring to the coming Antichrist, not “the Messiah.” The covenant is naturally understood to last only seven years, a limit that certainly does not fit the New Covenant which will be perpetual (Jer 31:31ff). The doom pronounced on this person matches what is pronounced on the Little Horn of chapter 7 as well as the Beast thrown in the lake of fire in Revelation 19.

By the way, I do know enough Biblical Hebrew to explain the deal with the he’s. Not only does Hebrew not have capital letters, but in this passage the verb conjugation automatically implies the masculine singular, so there are no separate personal pronouns to capitalize here anyway. Whenever you see a capitalization of pronoun, take it with a grain of salt because it is the added interpretation of the translator who could be wrong–which is the case here.

Which Translation is Correct?

I always recommend people refer to and use multiple Bible versions rather than rely on one, especially if it’s the old King James which is in hard-to-understand Old English, and 400 years behind in scholarship and manuscript discoveries. The rub here is, as we see in Jim’s questions, that it may take a while before you have the discernment to decide which of the several possible readings is probably the right one and not be left more confused instead of more enlightened.

The reason for the great differences Jim noticed are due to manuscript variations. The Hebrew Masoretic Text (MS) gives us the obscure “wing/overspreading of abominations” (yes, plural abominations) while the Greek Septuagint (LXX) reads “wing of the temple.” The Greek New Testament more often follows the LXX reading than the MS. Here the LXX fits better with Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 which refer to Daniel’s abomination being “setup” or “standing” in the “Holy Place” or “where it should not.” If you go with the obscure Hebrew reading, it’s hard to say what it means, but neither does it clearly contradict the NT understanding of this being about something set up in the Temple.

What is the Abomination of Desolation?

The noun here for abomination is always used in connection with idolatry (TWOT). Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the type of the Antichrist prophesied in Daniel 11:31-32, setup a altar and statue of Zeus in the Temple during the time of the Maccabees when he outlawed the reading of the Torah. Not surprisingly, Revelation 13 indicates that there will be a statue of the Antichrist himself commanded by the False Prophet to be worshipped. If the Beast will be setting up his headquarters in the temple declaring himself to be God (1The 2:4) it would make sense for the statue of himself to be setup there at his headquarters, exactly where Daniel’s abomination of desolation is to be setup according to Jesus.

What, then, is the desolation? The desolation referred to would be the desecration of the altar that putting such a detestable idol near would cause, a destroying of its true purpose. After Antiochus IV was defeated by the Maccabees they had to have a rededication of the altar.

How Long Is the Great Tribulation?

The question of how long the Tribulation is does not depend on any of the above questions. See this article for how to determine that with high confidence: How Long is the Great Tribulation?

Publicized Peace Treaty With Israel or Secret Conspiracy?

By the way, the theory that antichrist will confirm a peace treaty with the Jews and then break it in the middle of the 70th week is just that, a theory, not much better supported than Evolution. There actually is no plain text verse to support this. On the contrary, there is a plain text passage indicating that “the many” who the Antichrist makes a treaty with are those ten rulers who will already be pulling the world’s strings behind the scenes and therefore have power to make him the world ruler:

Revelation 17:16-17 — 16 The 10 horns you saw, and the beast, will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, devour her flesh, and burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His plan by having one purpose, and to give their kingdom to the beast until God’s words are accomplished.

I am convinced that this is why Jesus never told us to “watch out for the seven year peace treaty between Israel and the Antichrist spoken of by Daniel because there shall be Great Tribulation 3½ years later!!” Instead he told us to watch for the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet as the sign the Tribulation was imminent (1290-1260 = 30 days later). The treaty that the Antichrist makes with “the many” (or “the mighty”,”the strong ones” as another possible rendering of the Hebrew HaRabim) by all indications looks to be a secret conspiracy to defeat (America) Mystery Babylon and then set up a one world government or New World Order in her place. If it’s a public treaty then why didn’t Jesus tell us to watch for it and thereby give us a very nice advance signpost? But if it’s secret Jesus would not have instructed us to watch for it knowing that we’d have to be an Illuminati, instead of his disciple, to be in on that signing meeting =).

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How Long is the Great Tribulation: 7 years or 3½?

Someone asked:

Which half of the Great Tribulation do the Two Witnesses do their ministry in, the first or the second?

This question obviously assumes the Tribulation is all 7 years of Daniel’s 70th week. But, is that often-repeated idea correct?

Here’s how we find out how long the Great Tribulation is step by step:

1. Daniel 9:27 says there will be a league for 7 years and then halfway through it the sacrifices will be stopped and an abomination erected on a wing of the temple (same day apparently) by the Prince who shall come. (AC)
2. Dan 12:11 confirms that the sacrifices will be stopped and abomination set up on the same day, adding the detail that its exactly 1290 days from the end of the 7 years, which indeed is in the middle (not to the very day of course).
3. In Mat 24:15, Jesus says that the abomination spoken of by Daniel would “stand” (Mk 13:14) in the Holy Place immediately preceding the Great Tribulation (the same time of distress during the final End Times King of the North’s terrible reign over the whole earth that Dan 11-12:1 speaks about).
4. Therefore the Great Tribulation must be less than 1290 days long and thus cannot be 7 years long since it starts after the Abomination which is said to come in the middle of the 7 years. This makes it at most 3½ years.

The 1260 days of the Two Witnesses preaching is the same 42 months that the Temple Mount is trampled (Rev 11:1-3) and the same 3½ years that the Woman is protected in the desert (Rev 12:14) which all fit the Tribulation period well and make perfect sense placed there.(How 1260 days = 42 months = 3½ years literally is quite amazing to understand. See this article for that explanation of how it will work: http://timmchyde.com/revelation-calendar-360-30-day-month-coming.htm )

But Why Do the Two Witnesses Preach 1260 days, not 1290?

The reason why the Two Witnesses preach for 1260 days and not 1290 and the gentiles trample for only 42 months not 43 months, etc. is because since the Abomination was the only sign given to us by Jesus for how to recognize when to flee Judea to the mountainous safe place prepared for the righteous remnant (Mat 24:15-16=Rev 12:14), then there ought to be some time allocated in there to effectively flee as he commanded.

Thus, it seems that the Tribulation is only 1260 days and starts 30 days after the sacrifices are stopped and the statue of the Beast that the False Prophet commands to be made is set up which is what the Abomination is in case you are wondering (idols are one of only about five abominations identified in the Torah and also what Antiochus Epiphanes as a type of the Antichrist put in the Temple–a statue of Zeus).

Let me know if someone after reading this still believes the tribulation is 7 years long and why (I’m very curious to know why that idea is so persistent. I guess it’s because of the assumption that the treaty the Prince makes at the start of the 70th week is a public treaty all will see as his first act, but  not only does this treaty make no mention of Israel being the other party but no where does it say its not the secret treaty that Revelation 17 mentions the Antichrist makes with the 10 kings to destroy Mystery Babylon and rule the world instead).

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What is the Name of God?

G.B. asked:

More important than the number of the beast is the NAME of GOD!! Both old and new Testaments state that whosoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. The saviour said he came in his father’s name. So he has the same name as the father. What do you think the correct name out of the many expounded is? And how do we ensure that it is correct???? Any help on this issue would be appreciated. Thank you very much.

Acts 2, Joel 2 does not mean God’s Name is Magic

This topic is covered in great detail in my first book Planet X in Bible Prophecy, including the verses you cite of Joel 2 and Acts 2 about calling upon the name of the lord to be saved which are amazing prophecies of the future final fulfillment of the Biblical Feast of Pentecost before the Great Tribulation at the coming of Wormwood at the 6th seal. But it really has nothing to do with knowing his name and pronouncing it as the cause of being saved, but to tell us an attribute of the people who will be saved, that they love God enough to find out and use his name (Psalm 91:14) and are under a prophet who has taught them exactly what it is and how to say it, just as Jesus did to his disciples (John 17:6,26). This is contrary to how religions then and today operate in replacing the name with Lord or Adonai or even forbidding learning and saying the name as Judaism traditionally has done. It is not about magic syllables you must know to save you, but part of the restoration of all things promised by Jesus to come with the End Times Elijah before his second coming (Mark 9:12).

God’s Name According to the Oldest Complete Manuscripts

As for what the name actually is, what I state therein is that if we trust the Bible to be accurately preserved enough for doctrine then why do we not look to it to know God’s name which is written almost 7000 times as YeH-?-VaH (missing the middle vowel)? The reason is people have been taught that the vowels for YHWH were replaced by the scribes with the vowels for “adonai”, or “lord”, but you can prove this is not the case at all by comparing the two words in Hebrew (an exercise my book takes you through). In fact, although in most cases in most manuscripts one vowel indeed has been removed to prevent the name from being accidently pronounced (against Jewish law) when read, in some of the oldest complete manuscripts the scribes apparently forgot to erase the vowel (in about 50 places). The vowel that appears there, “o” (cholam), is consistent with the vowels used in all the names of the prophets, kings who have the first three letters of God’s name at the beginning (theophoric names) such as Jehoshaphat, Jehoshua, Jehoiada, Jehoram, etc.

Of course you must remember that these are not good transliterations into english since there is no J in Hebrew and the letter there Yod actually makes the sound of “Y.” This gives us “YehoVAH” (accent on the last syllable), of course very similar to the classic transliteration of “JeHOvah.” I believe saying “YehoVAH” is as accurate for God’s name as saying “Da-VID” (accent on last) is for King David’s. But I cannot say for sure how to exactly pronounce either of them without a prophet arriving to reveal it to me.

Jesus’ Real Name and Its Meaning

By the way, Jesus does not have the same name as the father. He came in or under his father’s authority, which is the other understanding of what coming in someone’s name means. His original full name is Yehoshua the same name given to Joshua under Moses, which means “Y’hovah is salvation.” Yehoshua became shortened to Y’shua due to the Jewish ban on saying the name of God which Yehoshua contains 3/4 of.

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Which Temple Does Malachi 3:1 Refer to?

Rob asked:

Hi Tim,

Malachi 3:1 states “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming ” says the Lord of Hosts. NASB. To which temple does this refer, and who constructed it?

Without a doubt the NT is clear that John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy (Mark 1:2 = Malachi 3:1). In that case the temple that the Lord or Messiah visited would be Herod’s temple. History shows that Herod The Great demolished and renovated this Second Temple originally built by the returning Babylonian exiles (but it was still called the Second Temple because the altar service and other ceremonies were never interrupted).

Dual Prophecy

However, we must always keep in mind with prophecy that usually they are dual. The former or intermediate fulfillment will fulfill certain aspects but not all of the entire prophecy. Later, the entire prophecy will be fulfilled in a latter or final fulfillment.

A classic example of this is Isaiah 61:1-2 which Jesus read in the synagogue of Nazareth at the start of his ministry in a sabbath year. He proclaimed the sabbath year and the start of his ministry by reading those two verses saying that they were now fulfilled. However, he stopped short of finishing verse two because it contained something he was not going to fulfill until his second coming, namely, “the day of vengeance of our God,” a clear reference to the Day of the Lord, or Yom Kippur at the end of the Great Tribulation.

It’s clear that Malachi 3 is another case of a dual prophecy of Jesus’ first and second comings because if you keep reading to Malachi 3:2-5 it, too, speaks of his coming at the time of God’s judgment and wrath right before the tribes of Israel are returned and purified for service in the Millennial Temple.

Who Will Build the Malachi 3:1 Temple?

If you want to know who I think will build that temple, I would have to guess the Jews of this generation. We’re told by prophecy that a Third Temple will be built before the Great Tribulation (Rev 11:1-3) so that the Antichrist can sit in it and declares himself God (2The 2:4) and delude the whole world in this way (2The 2:11). This temple is already slated for prefab construction by the current Sanhedrin in Israel, if it has not already secreted been. This must be the temple that is referred to as the Lord coming suddenly to, rather than the Millennial Temple of Ezekiel 40 which will be built later under the purified Levites mentioned in Malachi 3:3.

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Is the Rapture before Wormwood?

Mary asked:

Revelation chapter 7 talks about the four angels holding back the winds of the earth and sealing the 144,00 children of all the tribes of Israel. Right after that it speaks about the great multitude in heaven which appears to be the rapture. So during the 7th Seal and third trumpet, the star Wormwood is hurled into earth. Are you saying that christians will still be here on earth when Wormwood hurles into earth, and that the rapture will not have taken place?

Yes, I’m saying that the rapture comes after Wormwood, otherwise the firstfruit saints would not need sealing protection as the first half of Revelation 7 depicts nor would the Woman of Revelation 12 be brought to a place of safety for 3½ years at the start of the Tribulation. Wormwood is here from the 6th seal through 4th trumpet but the rapture comes at the last or 7th trumpet at the same time as the dead in Christ are raised according to Paul (1The 4:16, 1Cor 15:52). Revelation 20:4-5 says explicitly that the first resurrection of the dead includes people who overcame the mark of the beast and his image which of course means the resurrection and rapture cannot occur at the start or tribulation. Finally, Jesus in the Olivet Discourse agreed that after the Tribulation his angels would come with a trumpet to gather all his elect (Mt 24:29-31). “The elect” is used elsewhere in the NT to refer to the church (1Pet 1:1; 2Jn 1:1; Tit 1:1).

Myself I doubt that Revelation 7 is depicting saints in heaven after the rapture. We already have an explicit depiction of that in Revelation 15 (the sea of fire and glass). Instead I think Revelation 7 is showing all God’s children from all nations and races (rather than primarily Israel as the first phase of his plan works with) living with him constantly after the new heaven and new Earth as Revelation 21 and Isaiah 65 predict. This would explain why they are always with the Lamb in the Temple rather than ruling on Earth with him (and remember none of us are ever going to be omnipresent like God). However, even if Revelation 7 were depicting saints immediately after the first rapture, it gives no timing information as to when the rapture itself is.

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How Can Planet X Be Revelation’s star Wormwood?

Lou wrote:

Dear Tim,

I finished reading your book, and was very impressed. Thank you for writing it. I have a question:

You state “a rogue planet called Wormwood will approach dangerously close to Earth. Although it itself will not hit us, Earth will pass through its rocky tail or debris field.”

Yet the Holy Scriptures, in Rev 8.10-11, tell us differently: “.. there fell from heaven a great star, burning as a torch, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of the waters; and the name of the star is called Wormwood ..”

How do you account for this?

This is a common question so I’ve added it to the FAQ and am pasting here as well:

The first answer is that “Planet X” is a misnomer. It is the term coined by NASA for any as yet undiscovered planet orbiting the sun after Pluto, the 9th planet (X of course being the Roman Numeral for 10 or tenth). However, the little information leaked from NASA and other scientists that we have says that Planet X is actually not a classic non-luminous planet (except only by reflected light) but a red or brown dwarf (a small star). This fits with what Revelation says about Wormwood as a star that “burns like a lamp” in the sky.

The second answer is that the 3rd trumpet does not say Wormwood directly hits the earth but only that it “falls upon 1/3 of the waters.” If you want to see Revelation describe a direct impact on the earth from an extraterrestrial object, see the 2nd trumpet, or even the 1st trumpet for multiple where each time the complete collateral damage is itemized. The language there is much different. Its impossible for an impact to affect only 1/3 of the waters and not also damage land, people, crops, etc. as you see described for the major direct impacts of the 1st and 2nd trumpets. Also, if an object large enough to shine on its own hit the earth, all life would be over right then (or even if our own moon hit us). A direct hit is clearly then not what is being described given all of this. Instead, it must be referring to the tail (that we must be passing through) raining down and poisoning the waters. If we are not passing through a tail of Wormwood, then there is no way to explain the progression of tiny to large objects impacting the earth from the 6th seal through the 3rd trumpet while Wormwood is described as seen shining in the sky after it all (instead of lodged in the side of the earth!).

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America Falls Before or After Wormwood?

Lou asked

Does the turmoil and destruction caused by a planet x [wormwood] come before or after the ‘demise’ of America (babylon) thru war? It would appear that the destruction of 1/3 of the world by this planet would utterly disable most of the wolds technologies (fuel, food, and electrical energy production/distribution, etc) .. making it nearly impossible for nations to wage war against one another. Not to mention that much of the worlds harbors and ships would lay in destruction also.

We can know for sure from Revelation 14’s three angel’s messages that the fall of America the Babylon occurs right before the rise of the Beast at the 5th trumpet that places the mark on everyone. This is because the 2nd angel message announcing the fall of Babylon comes before the 3rd angel message warning not to take the mark (which is introduced at the start of the Great Tribulation).

Further, America’s fall must be after the 4th trumpet which is the final effect of Planet X/Wormwood because the first angel’s message warning people to repent happens right before Planet X/Wormwood passes at the 6th seal. Because Planet X happens so fast in the 6th seal through 4th trumpet, it’s doubtful that an enemy attack would happen before the 4th trumpet hits. So I place the fall of America between the 4th trumpet and 5th trumpet for this reason. It makes a lot of sense as you say with infrastructure out that America’s military relies on more than any other country for its advantage that this would be when Russia and her communist allies would strike.

If you doubt any nation will have the ability to wage war after Wormwood, then just note that the 6th trumpet speaks of a war between the Beast (essentially the revived Roman Empire with England/the lion at the helm - Dan 7:4 ) and enemies from the north and east (Dan 11:44 - China and Russia) will start a war with him. Also there is the final war of Armageddon after this making a total of at least three clear wars prophesied after Planet X. (A fourth would be the pretrib, pre-wormwood Arab-Israel war coming first).

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24 Elders Future? Rapture To Replace 1/3 Angels?

Tom asked:

It seems when John saw the 24 elders wasn’t there a mention of a vision? So would it be possible the end time visions seen by John the 24 elders, the saints under the throne were visions of future events as the book of revelation is written? This has not yet come to pass. But our Lord is soon in coming all the prophecies are up!!!!!! It won’t be long. But what I have read will come to pass heaven is ready to receive us. One third of the heavens were swept out with Satan. Are we the one third to take their place? Only wondering…..

By all indication, the 24 elders were already in heaven in the present back when John saw his vision of the throne room. Just as the Messiah was already ascended and in his place there. If we take these to be men as the evidence points to, then this makes more sense then saying this in some yet future resurreciton/rapture of only 24 people. I still think the best explanation is that these 24 were “raptured” at the time Jesus was to fulfill the Wave Sheaf prophetic rehearsal of Leviticus 23.

If I understand your other question correctly you are asking if we are going to heaven to replace the 1/3 of the angels who Satan marshalled in rebellion against God (Revelation 12)? The purpose for us going to heaven is not because it needs population but because we are not “appointed to wrath” (1The 5:9). Jesus indicated that the rapture would be right before God’s seven bowls of wrath fell. And by the way, the angels are still in heaven today because as Job and Revelation 12 indicate, their casting down with Satan after being banned from heaven is not until the start of the Great Tribulation of his wrath (the reason for the “woe, woe, woe” mentioned in Revelation 12 is the same as the three woes of the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpets).

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