Richard Spendiff wrote:
The main point I was making is that logically the beast cannot be mystery Babylon because then she would burn herself. Now, to be fair, if you make such whopping mistakes as this no one is going to take you seriously.
[..snip…]
Two Mystery Babylons
I guess you overlooked that there must be two mystery babylons that fall as Revelation 18 says “babylon has fallen, FALLEN†(and God does not stutter but instead most prophecies are dual). Jeremiah 50-51 calls the first one to be destroyed “daughter babylon†and the “mother babylon†will remain afterwards and be “sore confounded†at seeing this happen to her daughter. America came out of Britain which Daniel 7’s eagle’s wings coming out of the lion also represents respectively. The plucking of wings is the destruction of daughter babylon America who rides the greater beast (holds it back from rising which America as policeman of the world has done for two world wars now, but will fail at World War III). The Lion in Daniel 7 then rises up, as Britain will also head up the NWO Beast government (which is where Prince Charles the leading Antichrist candidate of course is heir to the throne).
This explains why the Beast ruling the entire world is destroyed at Jesus coming in Revelation 19 but many other prophecies also say that Babylon falls at Jesus coming, or the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 13), and yet Babylon is also said to fall before the Mark of the global Beast is rolled out as Revelation 14 plainly says in the three angels messages. This first Babylon is America defeated by Russia and her allies, the second is the NWO under England, the lion, defeated by the glorified Messiah.
Don’t feel bad at making this mistake, I don’t take you any less seriously because this is easy to miss given the dual prophecy element. But I will confess that your put down of my position as a “whopping mistake†when we’re discussing a subject where there is little agreement does make you sound out of touch, and harder for me to take seriously. I see the same tone here as well, is this Richard Spendiff by any chance you?
if the beast is a he and mystery babylon is a she – How can the beast be mystery babylon?
I think mr smythe might be on to something. The bible says in revelation 18:7-
“However much she glorified herself, and grew wanton”
My husband says this is a strange way to talk about the bible character called the beast.
Yes the Beast is a he, and he rules a kingdom. It’s possibly easy to gloss over, but I’m saying the kingdom he represents is the final, mother babylon destroyed at Jesus’ coming.
it is very clear 9to me anyway) that the babylon of revelation 18 is the same one as that of chapter 17
Rev 17:6 I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the holy ones, and with the blood of the martyrs of Yeshua.
Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones, and of all who have been slain on the earth
It seems to me that chapter 18 tells us about mystery babylon’s activities, how she exists. Chapter 17 seems to describe her character. There is not 2 babylons going around killing the saints are there?
Here in Holland we have always been taught that Egypt, not babylon, corresponds to the beast of revelation. Both of them are plunged in to darkness (a darkness that can be felt) and neither of them are totally destroyed with the desolations that sweep babylon (perpetual desolations). The idea that the kingdom of the beast is babylon seems ‘novel’ at best. The jeremiah/Isaiah accounts of babylon contain no reference to being ‘plunged into darkness’ so I think perhaps this idea is dangerous in that we are not to add to the words written in revelation.
george
Boy, so many comments, and all from Europe. It’s almost as if someone told a bunch of their friends to tell me I’m wrong 😉
Well number one I would not conclude something as being what I was always taught as any proof that it is true.
Secondly, if you expect every prophet’s description of the same event to include all the same details such as “plunged into darkness” before you accept they are in fact the same event then you may find nothing lining up very well. =)
While I am at zer computer, are you quite sure that this fifth bowl judgement is the same as the accounts of babylon in Isaiah and jeremiah. To someone without preconceptions, they must appear quite alien to each other. Well, I am happy to be amongst those who believe that 2 and 2 make 4.
Rev 16:4 The third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say, “Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was, for you brought these judgments.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve!”
The babylons of 17 and 18
Rev 18:24 “And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints”
seem to get a mention at the third bowl judgement (babylon gets it first).
Isa 13:11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless
Rev 18:7 As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning,
pomp…glorified
This is Babylon – pomp, arrogance. One translartion has
“and will lay low the haughtiness of the tyrants”. That is performed by the beast burning babylon.
Finally, there is no dual prophecy here
Rev 14:8 Then another angel, a second one, followed him, saying, “Fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen! She has made all the nations drink the wine of the wrath of her sexual sins.”
Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying in a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or his hand
Rev 14:10 will drink the wine of God’s wrath, which has been poured unmixed into the cup of his anger.
After babylon falls, a third angel warns against taking the mark of the beast. The kingdom of the beast is still up and running after babylon has fallen.
Rev 18:2 He cried out in a powerful voice, “Fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen”.
This is EXACTLY the same babylon in chapter 18 as in Chapter 14. The words are exactly yhe same. The “fallen, fallen” dual babylon idea is a result of reading only the KJV translation – a literal translation has it as “Babylon the great has fallen! It has fallen, and it has become a dwelling-place of demons,”
FYI, I will not tolerate and reserve the right to delete any disrespectful or insulting comments (by the way, where’s the love of Jesus among those who study the Bible? Can’t we talk respectfully without mocking and labels such as “false teacher” because we disagree on a prophecy that there is little agreement anyway).
Anyway, I fear this is an endless debate and I no longer try to convince people who have made up their mind already, once I recognize that is the case. So I plan to make this my last comment to Richard Spendiff and his friends on this and agree to disagree.
My Greek interlinear shows Revelation 14:8 has legon (saying) Epesen, Epesen (fallen, fallen) Babyulen. If you wish to gloss over that seemingly insignificant repetition and read from a non-literal translation that hides that detail then that is your choice (even though by your own admission it appears that way in two verses!). To me it fits with Jeremiah 50-51 talking about two babylons, daughter and mother and how Revelation 14 has a babylon fall before the mark of the beast is warned about coming next, which is mandated by the final Babylon empire aka the beast’s kingdom.
Rev 18:10 standing far away for the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Bavel, the strong city! For your judgment has come in one hour.
Speaking of jerusalem:-
Eze 16:23 It is happen after all your wickedness, (woe, woe to you! says the Lord GOD),
how many jerusalems are being referred to here? Just the one I think.
Rev 14:8 And another, a second angel, followed, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, that hath made all the nations to drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
If the beast/mother babylon kingdom has fallen in verse 8, how can it still be able to go around stamping the mark of the beast on it’s followers in verse 9. If it had fallen, it would be unable to to this.